Moths from Nam Nao, Thailand

[guldsmed]

During my trip in December-January I put up a 250 W blended Hg-lamp most of the places I went to. The exception was unfortunately Khao Soi Dao, which was by far the most promising place, but to there I travelled by bus not car and stayed in a tent, so it was not feasible to bring the equipment.

In Nam Nao I had the light up for 3 nights, but the first one was very cold (down to 4 C), so it yielded little. The other two were much better, with the last one staying up at 13-15 C as the lowest.

I took pics of as many species as possible and am trying to ID them from various online sources, but it is not easy. Here are some of those I have an idea about. There are many more...

Any help is appreciated, just one more name (or even one less in case of obvious misIDs that can not get a better one) would be nice ;-)

Some of them are not spot on to what I found on the web, and in one case (Netria multispinae) the pic is spot on compared to the pic on thaibugs.com, but other pics looks different. So I am sure it is indeed the species named Netria multispinae on thaibugs.com, that I shot at Nam Nao, but the pic on thaibugs may be misidentified...

[Painted Jezebel]

There are only a couple of IDs I need to question.

1) Benbowia is placed as a subgenus of Stauropus in Schlintmeister's Moths of Thailand, Volume 5, 2007. The species you mention is not, as far as I am aware, found in Thailand. It looks, very much, like Stauropus virescens, which is certainly found in the area of Nam Nao.

2) The Metanastria species you mention is only found in the far North of Thailand (Chang Mai area). It is much more likely to be the widespread Metanastria hyrtaca. The size of the cell spot also indicates that species.

The Syntypistis species are very difficult to ID from photos alone. Indeed, Schlintmeister has advised me, for several of my photos, just to put 'Syntypistis sp.' as you have done. I suggest you keep it as it is.

I look forward to more moths from your travels.

[guldsmed]

Thx Leslie

With the info about distribution for the first one, there can be little doubt you are correct.

Regarding the Metanastria, I was aware of that problem from the map at Digital Moths of Asia, but the specimens of hyrtaca there, had different shape/size of the black area. I was naturally suspicious, that it could turn out as you indicate, but I did not know the definite ID mark, so I went on what I (thought I) could see :-)

Regarding the "Syntypistis", does that mean, that you agree it is the right genus at least? I think the Syntypistis, Benbowia and Netria all look like Stauropus :grin2:


Here come a few more:

[Painted Jezebel]

The first one intrigues me. I can find no references of A. fuscilinea being found in Thailand, only Peninslar Malaysia, Borneo and Sumatra. I therefore looked at the only known (to me) Thai species, A. discispilana, but it looks very different. It is quite probable that my sources are a bit old, and, unfortunately, the series of Moths of Thailand has not yet reached the Drepanidae.

The last one looks like Teldenia specca.

[Painted Jezebel]

Regarding the Metanastria, I was aware of that problem from the map at Digital Moths of Asia, but the specimens of hyrtaca there, had different shape/size of the black area. I was naturally suspicious, that it could turn out as you indicate, but I did not know the definite ID mark, so I went on what I (thought I) could see :-)

Regarding the "Syntypistis", does that mean, that you agree it is the right genus at least? I think the Syntypistis, Benbowia and Netria all look like Stauropus :grin2:



Metanastria mantra is a montane sp., only being found at altitudes over 1800m. Were you that high?

I am sure that it is a Syntypistis sp.

I have tried to find Digital Moths of Asia, but without success. Could you advise me of its web address? It would be very useful for me to bookmark the site.

[guldsmed]

No I was not that high, I guess around 800-1000, I will go for hyrtaca then.

Digital moths of Asia is here: http://www.jpmoth.org/~dmoth/

upper left menu, glad that I too can be of some small help ;-)

Regarding the Agnidra fuscilinea, it is a second case like "Netria multispinae", the ID is based on thaibugs.com, the pic looks spot on, but possibly/probably because of wrong ID at thaibugs.com...

Agnidra fuscilinea is not recorded anywhere near Nam Nao or Chiang Mai according to Digital moths of Asia, and the pic there is also not spot on (though similar) so almost certainly it is wrong... but what is it then?

[Painted Jezebel]

Thanks so much for the link.:gbounce:

The moths of Thailand have been generally overlooked, with the exception of Sphingidae and Saturnidae. The series of books, The Moths of Thailand are trying to improve the knowledge of Thai moths, but the other families that have so far been covered are only the Notodontidae, Lasiocampidae, Noctuoidea (in part only), and Arctiinae.

When experts on these families visited Thailand, they discovered a huge amount of new species, not only for Thailand, but to science as well. It is not inconceivable, indeed quite probable, that you will find species not recorded from the country. I am fully aware that I have several from Samui.

I also have noted that the site makes no use of this series of books. For example, in volume 6,(Arctiinae) Dr. Karel Cerny shows 208 new species to Thailand and a further 66 new species to science out of a total of 406 members of this subfamily, none of which are mentioned on the site as being found from Thailand.

Your Agnidra sp. looks more like A. fuscilinea than any other member of the Genus, poss a new subspecies, but that would require one to be collected to prove, one way or the other.

[guldsmed]

Yeah, few on line resources are a match for good books, though there are exceptions such a this society's butterfly guide (which is excellent within its limited geographical area) and some specialist sites to smaller groups such as The Sphingidae of Southeast-Asia site.


Do you have the Notodontidae volume? If so, what does Netria multispina look like there?

[Painted Jezebel]

The female may not look too close, but it is old and faded, and is still the closest I can find to your photo!

Male & Female

[guldsmed]

Thx a lot, I will leave at that then. Soon I will go to an auction in our local entomological society, where among many other things will be 3 volumes of moths of Thailand and some of moths of Borneo too, wonder how many will be interested - hope nobody except me :grin2:

[Painted Jezebel]

Good luck with the auction. Moths of Borneo is online (15 out of 18 volumes - volume 17 is published but not yet online, volumes 2 & 13 are not yet published), and I use it regularly.

You can always email me, or post here, with any species not included in the Thailand volumes you can get, and I will see what I can do.

[guldsmed]

Thx a lot. Here comes some more. I will send first all the Nam Nao stuff, I can get a tentative or incomplete ID on. At the end of the thread, all the impossibles (to me!) will follow...

I use the on-line version of Moths of Borneo too, but I guess the plates will be better in the book than the screen version?

[Painted Jezebel]

Nice, Particularly the second one which is considered quite rare. Incidentally, both Schlintmeister and Holloway have the Genus as Harpyia, not Hyrpyia.

[guldsmed]

Nice, Particularly the second one which is considered quite rare. Incidentally, both Schlintmeister and Holloway have the Genus as Harpyia, not Hyrpyia.

Yes I just noticed that my self, I wonder where I copied the wrong spelling from. I should have known immediately, we have one species of Harpyia in Denmark too (H. milhauseri).

[guldsmed]

Two incomplete and quite uncertain IDs here...

[guldsmed]

A few more, mostly to genus only...

[Painted Jezebel]

The Pencillifera is P. apicalus.

Those that you have given the species name appear correct. The rest are very difficult.

I do not think that the Hexafrenum sp. is that genus. In fact, my book on the Notodontidae has nothing silmilar at all!

The others belong to the Lymantriinae or Noctuidae, and I can not find out their species name, though I did find another photo of the Arctornis sp. at Thai Bugs, but that was also labelled unidentified.

[guldsmed]

Thx a lot.

I am not surprised, that the "Hexafrenum" is wrong, it does not look like a notodontid to me at all, but while looking for something else, I saw a picture on thaibugs.com, that was an exact match, and labelled with that name : http://www.thaibugs.com/wp-content/gallery/moths-notodontidae/hexafrenum-sp.jpg

A misidentification at thaibugs then. To me it look like a noctuid or nolid maybe...

The Actornis I think is very likely to be be that genus, it is almost identical to the European species A. l-nigrum, that I know well from Denmark.

[guldsmed]

Found this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bettaman/6298646018/in/set-72157605819766326 - remarkably similar to my "Netria multispina"...

[Painted Jezebel]

Yes, a good match. Now to confuse you!!!! In the Thai book, it is called Syntypistis pallidifascia, having been previously been known as Stauropus pallidifacia.

A large number of previous genera have been lumped together under Syntypistis, including Vaneeckeia, Taiwa, Stauropodopsis, Egonocia, Quadricalcarifera and Omestia. This is appears mainly due to the appearance of the larval stages, where known, which differ from Stauropus and Harpyia.

Schlintmeister states that the true classification of Syntypistis is not clear yet, and possibly should be divided into several subgenera, in which case, these above mentioned 'lumped' genera may make a reappearance, but only as subgenera.

[guldsmed]

Interesting info, there must be some way to differentiate the imagos of different genera, though? Or how are are species, where the caterpillar is unknown, assigned to genus?

Here in Denmark we have only one species of Stauropus and one of Harpyia and no Syntypistis, so it is a bit easier...

[guldsmed]

Some geometrids...

[Painted Jezebel]

Interesting info, there must be some way to differentiate the imagos of different genera, though? Or how are are species, where the caterpillar is unknown, assigned to genus?

Very fair question. Usually its is venation or examination of the male genitalia, or both. I think that there will be a lot of changes before the scientists ever agree. Tropical lepidoptera, particularly the moths is most definitely a 'work in progress'!

It may mean something to you, certainly not me, but Syntypistis male genitalia is described as "display a long uncus with gnathos, long and slender valves and an often diagnostic sclerotized 8th. abdominal segment. The socii are reduced or absent" (Schintlmeister, Moths of Thailand, Volume 5, 2007, p.126).

Personally, I'm none the wiser!!!!!:)

[guldsmed]

Thx, I am a bit wiser, I do not practice gentalia dissection/preparation, but have tried once in an entomology course at university and know many people who do it all the time.

I do not remember, what uncus (I think it means thorn) and gnathos are, but the valves are the lateral appendages of males (can be seen without dissection), and the next part does not refer to the genitals, but states that the 8th segment is hard. The socii is also something in the genitals, that I do not remember what is...

[guldsmed]

Did you have any opinion on the 3 geometrids?

Here are some more, one appeared before with a totally wrong I D (from thaibugs), here is a more likely one from Hong Kong Moths.

[Painted Jezebel]

Did you have any opinion on the 3 geometrids?


The second and third are right. I am not sure about the first. Certainly the markings are very similar, but your photo looks much darker, to that on ThaiBugs. John Moore has a couple of other photos in that gallery left unidentified which are darker, and closer to yours. I suspect you may be right, most certainly to Genus level.

With regards to the last 3, the two Arctiinae (2&3) are right. I am still not totally sure about the first. The apparant distribution of the species misses out Indo-China completely, and there are a couple of photos on flickr or pbase both labelled as such, but which appear different from each other. The one on flickr seems closer, but the white head markings look different, but it may simply be the angle of the shot.

[guldsmed]

Thx again for your insights!

I found several pics now that looks spot on for Aeologramma albiscripta, but I see your point, it may be wrong again, or it may be that the distribution is wider than given... The Indochina actually seem a weird "hole" surrounded by areas of occurrence. Hmm...

Anyway, it seems that the rest of my pics from Nam Nao, I get no further than family. Should I upload them to the thread, maybe you know some of them, or is it too much?

[Painted Jezebel]

Much of Indo-China is, indeed, a hole, what with the problems of Myanmar, Cambodia in the 1970s and Thailand being closed to foreign scientists until the 1960s, and there are still difficulties in getting collecting permits here in National Parks.

Please post those unidentified species. I may be able to help, but not with the Geometridae or Lymantriinae, unless I have already photographed the species, in which case you could find them in my 'Galleries' on the website.

[guldsmed]

OK, here comes first 5. Two geometrids, one notodontid (?), one catocaline (?) and a no-idea-ine :)

[Painted Jezebel]

The first is Ericeia inangulata (Catocalinae).
The last one is Besida (Ortholomia) xylinata (Notodontidae).

Sorry, I can not find the other 3.

[guldsmed]

Thx a lot, I had an inkling about the genus of Ericeia inangulata, and am happy, that the last one was a notodontid as I thought, though I could find nothing similar.

The geometrids must be one geometrine (Hemithea? or something like that) and one ennomine (Cleora, Boarmia, Alcis, Ectropis, Peribatodes or something like that).

#2 I can not even get a family to (is it a noctuid, a geometrid or a pyralid or something else entirely), but never mind it is worn and boring anyway :cheers:

I will upload more unIDed tonight

[guldsmed]

Here are some more...

3 ennomines (1, 2, 8)

assorted noctuids (4, 9 and possibly 11)

a drepanine (3)

a hypenine (5)

# 6 could be herminiine or rivuline, but maybe not...

# 7, 10, 12: I have no idea...

[Painted Jezebel]

Theses are now getting difficult!:)

1&2) I agree most probably Ennomines.
3) A Drepanidae, but I have no books on this family.
4) You may be right about family, but I have come across several Notodontids resting in a similar fasion, but this is not in my book.
5) Hypena iconicalis (Hypeninae).
6) Sorry, no idea.
7) I think it is a Drepanidae. The wing shape is similar to those of the Phalacra genus.
8) Noctuidae. No idea.
9) Noctuidae. No idea.
10) Anuga sp. (Eutelidae). The resting pose is very distictive. I suspect A. multiplicans, but the hindwing tornal spot is larger than normal, so I can not be positive with this.
11) No idea.
12) I have seen several of the Arctiinae with this resting style. However, this is not in my book.

Sorry, it is the best I can do with these!:thumbsdow

[guldsmed]

Yeah, I was also totally bewildered by these. But you nailed some, thx a lot!

What about these?

The first (# 1 and 2) I have no idea, but suspect it to be easy?

#3 Bombycidae

#4 Ennominae

#5-6 Lymantridae (Lymantria + Euproctis s. l. ?)

#7 Lasiocampidae

#8 Arctidae

#9 Ennominae

#10 Lymantria?

[guldsmed]

Another 12 un-ID'ed...

I can get to family or subfamily for most, but that is all, except the one that you earlier said Anuga to, I am including that in case it gets it closer to positive species ID :-)

[Painted Jezebel]

Sorry, not been very successful with these last two posts.
Post 34 -
No. 6 - Lymantriinae, as you say, I also have a photo of this, which remains unidentified!
No. 8 - Macotasa nubeculoides (Arctiinae).

Post 35 -
No. 5 - Definitely an Anuga species, but I do now have doubts as to which of several very similar species it can be.
No. 11 - Padenia duplicana (Arctiinae)
No. 12 - Zanclognatha sp. indet (Herminiinae). My book shows this species, but leaves it simply as I have put it!

I'll keep on trying, but I am not hopeful for the rest, however distinctive they may be. Your possible Lasiocampidae (Post 34) is not in the volume relating to that Family.

[guldsmed]

Well, I am glad of any help, and you already helped me tremendously :)

There are not so many left from Nam Nao now, but after those, I will open threads from Phu Wiang (many), Khao Soi Dao (few as I could not bring my Hg lamp), Baan Maka near Khaeng Krachan (few as the lamp mostly attracted bees there) and Wanakorn Beach (many). Unless you are tired of my too many small brown jobs?

Regarding the Anuga I saw that John Moore on his Flickr! has an identical looking one ID'ed as A. indigofera. I looked it up, and it certainly looks similar also in Moths of Borneo, but the distribution is given as "Borneo, Peninsular Malaysia, Sumatra", so maybe not very likely in Northern Thailand...

MoB also mention a similar and probably closely related A. multiplicans from India and Sri Lanka. Wonder if any of these two could occur in Northern Thailand or if it is possible, that there actually is a third undescribed(?) taxon filling the void between A. multiplicans and A. indigofera

[Painted Jezebel]

I will open threads from Phu Wiang (many), Khao Soi Dao (few as I could not bring my Hg lamp), Baan Maka near Khaeng Krachan (few as the lamp mostly attracted bees there) and Wanakorn Beach (many). Unless you are tired of my too many small brown jobs?

Oh dear! I have opened a large workload.:cry: :grin2:

Just joking, If I can add just a few names it is better than nothing. Please continue posting.

You must realise that about 60% of moth species found in Thailand are not either scientificaly described, or known from Thailand. I would say that I have photos of a far larger number of unknown species than ones that the experts can identify.

You are continuing this. Thank you. The professionals who study specific families need to look at our photos, contact those of us who live in these lesser studied areas and say, "this looks like a new species, if you come across it again, can you provide a voucher specimen".

Regretably, these pros seem to consider amateur field entomologists of no importance. They are making a big mistake.

[guldsmed]

Not quite so here in Western Europe. For instance Michael Fibiger the recently (one year ago) deceased chairman of our entomological society here in Copenhagen was trained and worked as a psychologist, but was a renowned expert on noctuids internationally (editor and main author of a multi volume work on on European noctuids) and I think the only real expert in the world on Micronoctuidae.

But I think you are right in almost any other part of the world, the pros do not count the "private entomologists" (aka amateurs).

I would not mind get vouchers for the pros (I collect here in Denmark). The problem would be, that many of the places I go to are National Parks, and taking vouchers would require having a permit, which I believe is a hassle to get? And if it is not planned collecting, normally I would not bother to seek a permit in advance, which means I can not do it, if the wanted guy suddenly shows up at the light... In places like Denmark we can normally collect where ever and what ever we want (except specially protected species - these are very few just 10-15 butterflies and one (1) moth). To have real impact of contributions from field amateurs, I honestly think it is necessary to generally allow non-commercial collecting. Sites and species can be exempted (closed zones, protected species) from this off course.

[guldsmed]

The last two portions from Nam Nao, first the geometrids - I know you do not have litterature, but you might know one anyway. Or some may not be geometrids at all, which may mean that you know them :grin2:

[guldsmed]

And the other stuff: Some pyralids, noctuids, an arctiid, I guess a notodontid, maybe two lasiocampids...

I think this is all from Nam Nao, but I may dig up another one or two from somewhere...

[Painted Jezebel]

1) Somena similis (Lymantriinae)
4) "Hypena sp. indet" (Hypeninae)
5) Chonopla modulata (Lasiocampidae) - Not sure about this, but it is the closest I can find!
8) Tigrioides leucanioides (Arctiinae)
9) Fentonia excurvata (Notodonidae)
13/last one) Synclera traducalis (Crambidae - Spilomelinae)

Best I can do!

[guldsmed]

And that is quite good, thx a lot :)

The post before last with all the geometrids is totally hopeless then?

[Painted Jezebel]

The post before last with all the geometrids is totally hopeless then?

Geometridae I am totally hopeless with. It is a waste of your time asking me about them. Sorry!!! I can not even suggest anyone to contact about them. I gave up about them a long time ago.

[guldsmed]

OK np :grin2:

If no books and no good on line resources, not much to do...